Question about the ocean-waves-water analogy

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Greetings!

The Advaita take of the ocean-waves-water analogy is the waves are objects (nāma-rūpa), and the water is brahman. Assuming this is right, what is the ocean?

Merci. 🙂

15 thoughts on “Question about the ocean-waves-water analogy”

  1. Hi Rick,

    “The Advaita take of the ocean-waves-water analogy is the waves are objects (nāma-rūpa), and the water is brahman. Assuming this is right, what is the ocean?”

    In the above analogy, to my understanding:

    Wave ‘form’ stands for nAma-rUpa – a ‘percept’;
    Water or “liquidity” is an “adhyAropita” (superimposed on purpose – i.e. to be rescinded later on) ‘quality’; and,
    Ocean stands for “infinitude” (boundlessness – unavailable for ‘conceptualization’ by the mind, nor available as a percept for the senses).

    regards,

  2. Hi Rick and Ramesam,

    I would disagree. In my understanding, wave stands for jIva, ocean stands for Ishvara. Both are name and form of the ‘reality’ – water, standing for Brahman.

    Best wishes,
    Dennis

  4. Thanks Dennis and Rick.

    Because Dennis expressed his disagreement with my understanding, I felt curious to know how AI would respond to the question posed by Rick. I usually prefer the Google and Amazon backed Anthropic AI tool; it is at least less pompous than “the GPT family of language models that power ChatGPT on a series of benchmark cognitive tests.” The industry claim is that “its answers are usually better written and easier to read.”

    Briefly, the replies I got are as follows:

    ” In the Advaita Vedanta ocean-wave-water analogy:
    Ocean = Brahman (ultimate, undifferentiated consciousness)
    Waves = Individual manifestations (jīvas)
    Water = The substantive essence common to all waves.

    After carefully reviewing the major Upanishads, I cannot confidently cite a specific verse that directly uses the ocean-wave-water analogy. While the analogy is widely discussed in Advaita Vedanta commentaries and philosophical interpretations, it appears to be an illustrative metaphor developed by philosophers like Adi Shankara to explain non-duality, rather than a direct Upanishadic quote.
    The closest Upanishadic references are conceptual parallels in texts like the Chandogya Upanishad (particularly 6.8.7, “tat tvam asi”) that speak to the non-dual nature of reality, but not the specific ocean-wave metaphor itself. ”

    regards,

  5. Ramesam,

    I asked the same AI and it responded:

    In the Advaita Vedanta metaphor:

    Water = Brahman
    Waves = Individual manifestations/entities
    Ocean = The totality of existence

    I guess they can change their minds? 😉

    • This is actually possible! But you would require an electronic version of all his bhAShya-s. I have the printed version from Samata Books in 10 volumes, but unfortunately that is not of much use! And, of course, it does rely upon the AI’s Sanskrit translation skills. But I have been assured by others that these are actually very good.

      Dennis

  7. Rick,

    You must have noticed that the AI responses always come with a ‘caution’ and also ‘a readiness to learn’!

    The caution is: “can make mistakes. Please double-check responses.”
    Readiness to learn (In the context of present query): “I’ll await your research and appreciate the opportunity to learn more about the precise origin of this metaphor in Advaita literature.”

    Overall, I think its response does not contradict what I said in my first reply to you.

    regards,

    • I have been using GPT and other LLMs pretty much steadily since they took off a couple of years back and during that time they have all made an astounding number of mistakes, particularly in the realm of mathematics! I think of them as (digital) idiot savants. 😉

  8. I think the whole point about metaphors is that you use them to explain something else that is more subtle and itself difficult to explain. Effectively, you can use them however you like as long as you explain how you are understanding them and apply them according to that usage. Arvind Sharma, for example, has written two entire books – one on the rope-snake metaphor and one on the shell-silver one – showing the different ways in which those metaphors can be used.

    I probably got my intepretation from Swami Dayananda or Paramarthananda. Their use is in line with the idea of mithyA versus satyam. Just as you have ring, bangle and necklace that are all really only gold, so you have streams, rivers, waves, tsunamis and oceans that are all really only water.

    Dennis

    • Would you agree that both ‘individual’ waves and ‘totality’ ocean represent mithya (nama rupa) and the water satyam (brahman)? The reason I keep hammering at this is because in most Eastern systems, the waves are apparently individual parts and the ocean is the interconnected whole, i.e. the ocean is seen as the Truth. But in Advaita both the waves and the ocean are seen as mithya!

      • That’s correct, yes. (Although, as you have seen, Ramesam doesn’t agree. But then he is a Yoga Vasishta-ite, after all! 😉 – joke, Ramesam!)

  9. Shankara comments, while introducing 9.6, BG, “By way of illustrating through an example what has been taught in the two preceding verses (9.4 and 9.5, BG), the Lord says:

    यथाकाशस्थितो नित्यं वायुः सर्वत्रगो महान् ।
    तथा सर्वाणि भूतानि मत्स्थानीत्युपधारय ॥ — 9.6, BG.

    Meaning: As the mighty wind moving everywhere rests ever in the AkAsha, so, know thou, do all beings, rest in Me.” (Trans: A.M. Sastri).

    Explaining the above, Shankara writes: “It is observed in our ordinary experience that the wind, moving everywhere and mighty in expanse, ever rests in the AkAsha; so also in Me, who am all-pervading like the AkAsha, do all beings rest without any contact at all.”

    From the analogy that Lord Krishna gives above, one can easily see that:
    brahman is Space-like (similar to boundless ocean);
    Moving within that Space is wind (like water in the ocean);
    Waveforms (nAma-rUpa) are common to both the wind in Space and water in the ocean.

    Further, one may also appreciate that what each element in the analogy of “ocean-wave-water,” represents differs depending on whether the SDV model or DSV model is adopted in the teaching of Advaita message. The final message of Advaita is that there is “no creation” (in which case there cannot be a Creator Ishwara also). Hence, there is little need to use an analogy that brings in the Creator Lord, Ishwara, into the picture.

  10. “I think the whole point about metaphors is that you use them to explain something else that is more subtle and itself difficult to explain. Effectively, you can use them however you like as long as you explain how you are understanding them and apply them according to that usage.”

    So, yes, certainly you can try to use it in that way if you want. Although I thought it was BrahmA who was the creator, not Ishvara. Doesn’t the latter just maintain all the laws etc. and ‘manage’ the jIva-s? (I never did understand the various responsibilities of all the deities and do tend to skip over the relevant passages in the scriptures…)

    But I do not see how you can map the two metaphors.

    In the ocean-wave metaphor, both the ocean and the wave really are made out of water. Movement does not figure in the metaphor.

    In the wind-space metaphor, no third element seems to be mentioned. If we agree it has to be ‘air’, then we could say what? That both wind and air are made out of space??

    Also, you say that “moving within that Space is wind (like water in the ocean)”. But how does water ‘move’ in the ocean, when the ocean is nothing but water? You might say that a wave moves in the ocean but what corresponds to this in in wind and space?

    Please explain.

  11. Dennis,

    I find the first para of your comment above is totally inarguable. As a matter of fact all debates and disputes end with it! A discussion can ensue only if there is an expression of “disagreement.”

    With regard to the other points you make, my response is as below to the best of my understanding:

    Ishwara:
    The word Ishwara has multiple connotations in our spiritual literature. Ishwara is “Isha” (Lord) of “Aiswarya” (all that is created by Him). ‘mAyA shabalita brahman’ (brahman colored by mAyA) is also Ishwara.

    Mapping the two metaphors:
    I agree that the two metaphors are not exactly similar; but the one at 9.6, BG is the best I could recall in its similarity to ‘ocean-wave-water.’

    The three elements that are relevant at 9.6, BG, in the context of our discussion, are: Me ( = Krishna as Brahman); Space; and wind/air.
    (I have not considered movement as an element; wind is air only but in movement).

    I have no problem if you would like to dump this metaphor! 🙂

    regards,

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